Ann: Gaming. If you’re in your 30s, 40s or even early 50s you grew up with gaming. But the gaming you grew up with, isn’t necessarily today’s gaming world. Things have come a long way since I played Pac-Man, Donkey Kong and Frogger.

Today, people play video games for a living. A really, really good living. The all-stars of the bunch; PewDiePie at $40 million a year and Ninja at around $25 million a year. These guys stream on Twitch - and our kids will sit and watch them for hours. They’re sponsored by huge national brands, they sell their own merchandise, they’re paid thousands and thousands of dollars by manufacturers to play their new games online for just minutes.

And, while we might not quite understand the fascination or obsession with video games, our kids love it. And what’s not to love? For them, it’s fun and exciting, they get to hang out with their friends and play online, they get to escape their stressful world for a little while.

But some teens, in fact, love it so much, it can become a problem.

I’m Ann Coleman and this week on Speaking of Teens, gaming; the good, the bad and the really bad. How do we help our kids balance gaming with other aspects of their life?

Today, I’m speaking with Jeremy Edge, the owner and founder of escapingthe.com counseling services. Jeremy’s a licensed professional counselor with certification from the International Gambling Counselor Certification Board. What really stands out about Jeremy is that he brings some personal experience to his practice because he’s also felt the negative effects of a gaming disorder.

Jeremy, thanks so much for coming on the show today to talk about this hot button topic for parents and kids.

Jeremy: Of course. Thank you for having me in.

Ann: I think gaming has such a negative connotation for many parents, and we tend to be over focused on the negatives. So I wondered if you could talk to us a little bit about some of the positive aspects of gaming for our kids first,

Jeremy: Sure. No, it's a really hot topic. And so for a lot of parents, it's natural to be fearful of video games to see the, the negatives. But video games can be a great healthy escape. They can be a great way to disconnect from stress if the kids are kind of teenagers struggling with academics or school or sometimes if there's a lot of stress or bullying they're experiencing, uh, a video game can be a great safe haven for them.

They can be able to increase their social life online. Um, they can be able to connect with people. Allies with them that are, that are friends, that are safe people to be around, especially if they're not feeling like they're getting that in person. Um, it can also be a great way to increase, um, hand eye coordination.

They can, um, work towards a goal. Every game you're working towards some type of goal. And so this is good at practicing, even working towards, um, working through failure, working through being able to struggle and work through something that's difficult. It's also, uh, you know, some of these games are very competitive and so it's good to be able to work on a team and be able to improve your teamwork skills.

Um, that's another really good positive piece to it. There's a lot of problem solving and strategy involved, and so a lot of these things can be transferred or kind of, I I say transferrable motivations or transferrable things that can be moved towards something else in the physical world. And so, um, those are just a couple of the, the pieces that are, I think.

Ann: Okay, so for people like me who absolutely could not stand it when my child would sit in front of a video game for more than five minutes, we need to get over ourselves a little bit. Right?

Jeremy: Well, and, and it's, it sounds type of wrong here, but Anne, but it could be based on fear. And, and, and not, uh, just not knowing what type of game they're playing. Right. We're not sure what they're doing online. It's gonna be a very, it can be a very foreign world. And so a little bit, I think it's good to kind of pump the brakes a little bit, but it's okay to be a little bit fearful cuz we don't know what's going on online. Um, but I would encourage a ton of focus on the relationship first.

Ann: Um, exactly. Okay. Um, great. So, um, Tell me when we do need to worry about it. Like what do you tell parents to watch out for? How can we recognize when it's actually becoming a problem?

Jeremy: I think the first thing to look at is just the amount of time they're spending on it. One hour, two hours a day is totally fine to be able to disconnect and to unwind. If that is starting to increase, where they're trying to spend three hours a day, four hours a day, uh, and on the weekends they spend five plus hours a day or so on, uh, in a, in, in a game or on online activity, that might be worrisome if they're starting to focus on this activity and other responsibilities are being neglect their academics are, are dropping, their relationships are putting on the back burner. They don't seem to be doing their physical, uh, exercise that they used to be doing. Maybe they don't. Um, they are staying up later all because of games. Then that's, those are kind of some clear signs. It's an issue. Um, if they stay up late, maybe one Friday night and play with their, their friends, but they're able to go to school Monday morning and have no issues and that's fine.

Right. Like it's, it's, it. Too big of an issue, but I'm starting to see a pattern of, gosh, mom, I wanna spend more time online. Or, gosh, I'm really tired because I, I stayed up super late last night. Then that's more of an issue that, you know, we could maybe address.

Ann: Okay. That's really good to have kind of a timeline in your head because I think that's when I usually did start worrying is if it passed that two hour point, I wanted somebody to stop and wanted them to go outside and get a little fresh air before they came back and sat down in front of the thing again. So, that's good. two hours during the week, maybe not a problem as long as it's not interfering with other things.

Ann: And, that's one thing I heard you talk about in a presentation that I watched you talked about, I think you called it the wheel of life. Something like that, like sitting down and looking. So explain.

Jeremy: Yeah, great question. So I think the wheel of life is kind of a way to look at different aspects of any person's life. If we look at a teenager, can be made up of physical health, can be made up of mental health relationships with parents and peers. It's made up of academics. Um, And so there's a lot of in different activities too. And so some of these things, if we look at kind of how to stay balanced and healthy when these things are going well, whenever their mental health is well, they feel pretty confident in themselves or self-esteem is solid, they feel some sadness, but it's not debilitating that depression anxiety is not crippling.

And so when that area  is positive, then that that's a part of the wheel of life that helps them stay balanced and healthy. Um, sometimes screens and games add to their value of life. Sometimes it can help them increase their overall health and wellbeing, but sometimes it can get in, get in the way of it.

And so I, I use the Wheel of Life as a way to help see what's, um, how are screens impacting that, you know, physical health, right? You can use a Fitbit. Apple watches are fantastic with tracking. Heart rate and, you know, help with your workouts. Right? So that can be a really great aid, uh, in supporting your, your physical health, right? Technology can help with that. It can also get in the way of it physically being sitting down at a computer, you know, playing a video game or sitting down playing a game is, is a sedentary activity most of the time, right? Unless we're playing rock band or, you know, dance, dance revolution. It's a pretty physically sedentary activity so that can get in the way of physical health. And so that piece of the wheel of life can be negatively impaired by gaming. Um, but it doesn't have to all the time.

Ann: So a, as long as a, a parent sees that they, they go outside every once in a while. Let's say they're involved in, um, a team sport or something like that.

The gaming is not interfering with their team sport. It's not interfering with their grades, it's not interfering with their sleep, nutrition, whatever. I mean, and let's say they are playing three hours a day. Um, should we be worried as long as it's not impacting those other areas of their life.

Jeremy: Yeah, I, I don't think it's an issue. Sometimes we can get focused on time and yes, it is good to be, um, active, to be physically active. You know, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends being able to have kids be very active, right? And so that's a part of being a healthy person and, and for a teenager that's a really big part too.

Um, I think though, if we look at spending three hours a day or so as a benchmark, and we only look at that, we can be fearful. Maybe this is causing an issue, but I think you're right. And if, if it's not causing an issue in other areas of this person's life, then that's totally fine. When you look at adults, a lot of us right now, in 2023 are spending a lot of time online because we have to with our jobs, right, with our work, whatever it may be. And so we're probably pretty sedentary in our lifestyle and, and our life in front of device is for a long period of time, you know, eight plus hours or so isn’t uncommon, right? Because, but, but we're working, we're being productive. And so I think another way to categorize it is what type of screen use are we engaged in?

Gaming usually is entertainment based. It's fun, it's casual, right? But it can also maybe be productive. It could be also a social outlet. Um, you know, it can be sometimes, uh, someone's career. If teenager is playing three hours a day and they get to be very, very good at the game, they could potentially make money, either by streaming or being a pro professional eSports player, which will increase their time that they need to play, if that's gonna be their profession.

Ann: Let's talk about that “I want this to be my profession” thing because I've heard that, um, from several kids before. And as a matter of fact, my godson was thinking about doing that.

Ann: So how, how do we talk to our kids about this? Is this the same as somebody saying, I wanna be the next, you know, Tom Cruise, or whoever it is, or Harry Styles or whatever. How do we bring them back down to earth about that? Maybe. And I want parents to know that you can actually make a living at it. So talk about that too.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, statistics I've seen is around 2.5 or 2.6 billion gamers in the entire world. Wow. It's a lot. It's a big number. It's a huge number. The average gamer is 35 years. I'm 36, so it's around my age as far as the average gamer. Now that number is, is very popular with teenagers. Yes. But also gamers have been around for a long time.

Um, and so as you say, you know, Harry Styles or Tom Cruise, those are, uh, like the top. You know, you know, um, bar to be able to reach for entertainment and for being able to make a profession in the entertainment industry, either as a movie star in music or even in a sport, right? There's not many LeBron James out there.

There's not many, um, you know, people who are able to make a sport their career. Some are able to, some are able to, right? But not everybody. Not everyone can be like, You know Michael Jordan back in the day, right? Like everyone wanted to be Michael Jordan. Everyone, you know, a lot of people spent a lot of time shooting baskets to be able to try to be a professional basketball player.

Some were able to make it sure, but not a lot in comparison to the majority of who were trying to make it. And it's a similar thing with video games, with so many people, especially since the pandemic. So many people being online, seeing gaming as a fun entertainment piece, but also as a potential to make a career streaming or being on a pro eSports team.

What I would look at as a practical insight for hopefully parents is to see are they actually good at the game? It sounds mean, it sounds mean like, and seriously, uh, chill. If, if they're playing a competitive game, like let's say Valiant. Valiant is a very popular game these days. There's a rank system. If they are very high in their rank system, where they're like the top 100 of, you know, thousands and thousands of people who play right, then maybe they have a shot at being at a professional, uh, on a professional team.

Maybe, um, if they're not very high, then they're probably not going to ever get to that top, top level, even if they play a lot and they're like, oh, this is my chance, mom. Um, probably not. But if they objectively are, are very good at the game, they're very coordinated and they, uh, have good teamwork and they're able to progress and they might potentially have a shot, um, at playing in tournaments and being able to maybe stream. But it's not very common that happens.

Ann: So the first question is, show me your rank, son. Let's check out the rank first. Right? , if you're in the top thousand, I will let you spend all day on Saturday playing, practicing your, your sport.

Jeremy: And, and I think it's, uh, that's a great question Yes. Is to ask like, Hey, tell me about your rank. And I think I would, uh, you know, come from the perspective. Let's, let me learn about what you're doing online. Let me learn about your game. Show me your character. Show me what you like about it. Show me what you do. Yeah. And try to come from the perspective of just curiosity. Just, just straight curiosity.

If we come at it, you know, off the bat saying, you know, Well, you're not good enough. Like, what? What's your rank? Right? Like, if we come out from that judgmental kind of tone where they'll be able to pick up on that really quickly.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah. And be like, all right, mom, whatever, you know, you just don't get it.

Jeremy: Right. They'll say You don't get it. Yeah. And, and trust me, I, I work with clients who come in my office and say, look, I don't want. To finish high school or I want, when I graduate from high school, I'm gonna go pro in my streaming. I have, I've had a client who is a young adult who struggles to find consistent work because like, look, this is my shot to go pro in this new game that's come out I, you know, over the last year.

So I have to put in as much time as I can to make this a reality. And Wow. All the while, you know, struggling with consistent sleep. Consistent, good nutrition. Not able to hold a job, not able to independently live and. It is possible for some, yeah. But a very, very small percentage. Um, so I think a part of it is just have that conversation with your kiddo. Yeah.

Ann: And, and I guess the conversation would be the same as you would if they said, I wanna play pro ball, or I want to be a movie star, or whatever. Um, but it's interesting when you were saying, you know, are they losing sleep? Are they doing just this? Are they, you know, When we look at people that want to start a tech company, you know, right.

They lose sleep. They, you know, go for days without eating. So it, it is, I think we do kind of judge it in a way that maybe we don't judge other things. Um, but it's awfully hard when you're my age and you actually did not grow up. With gaming. So maybe it's easier for parents who are younger than me to actually see this as, you know, maybe it has more potential.

Um, and I love the suggestion of, of learning more about it as a parent. That was one of the things I was gonna ask you is how can we connect more with the kids when they're playing the video games and that kind of thing, when, you know, we have no idea what they're doing. Is there a way to do that or are they just gonna say, you don't, you know, you don't get it, and no, I'm not gonna show you about it, but how, how can we maybe.

Jeremy: Yeah, knowing that's hard. I think the, the teenagers are really good at picking up on judgment and, you know, they're teenagers trying to be really cool, you know, and if they, they want sometimes to, to have their own independence and autonomy, especially from their parents. And so when talking about it with your teen, it's really good to try to, if possible, um, pick up.

I noticed like if you just were able to pick up some of the nuances of what they say, like kind of some of the verbiage of like, you know, gosh, that was a really good headshot, or, gosh, this was a really good whatever, right? Like, this is particular verbiage to the game, they can be like, oh wow, you're listening and you respect this enough to be able to speak the language.

That's one thing that can help sometimes even just watching the game and saying, Hey, help me understand what this is. And then as they explain, kind of like say, oh, okay, so the goal, the objective is this, and then to validate the good that you see. Wow. Like you’re building something really cool here.

You're, you're like, not just like spending, spending, you know, hours and hours just kind of doing nothing, but you're really building something cool. Yeah. Minecraft is, is an example of kind of a digital Legos, right? You can build something from scratch. It's kind of like a, you know, a game version of AutoCAD.

You kind of build something really cool, right? AutoCAD's, a professional software used by engineers and architects everywhere. And so if we're able to see, guys, show me what you're building. Show me what you're doing, what, who you're competing with, and kind of what you like about this game. There's a lot of nuances to.

I think what gamers, uh, what, what what is, is in, is in video games. We can appreciate that and try to speak to that. Bring out the positives. I think that can help connect and that can help the kids. At least, you know, know that we respect them.

Ann: Right, right. I, and, and, uh, Minecraft is one of the ones that I used to love watching my son do. I was into that. I was like, Ooh, yeah, that's cool. You know, it, it's easier. I think for some things like that, that where you can make comments. It's hard to sit there and watch Call of Duty and go, Ooh, you did a great job blowing that guy's head off, you know, that one was a little tough for me. Very hard.

Lets talk about the violence. I mean, my son was way into Call of Duty. 1, 2, 3, however many they have now. Um, and, and that did really bother me walking into a room and seeing the, you know, the blood and the gore and all the shooting that did bother me. So, um, tell us, should we be that worried about it or is it to them just a game and not a big deal?

Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good question. And there's, right, is it's, um, it makes sense to be concerned about the level of violence in some of these games. Grand Theft Auto, Call of Duty can be very graphic in nature. It's, it's normalizing very violent acts. And so I think on the surface, yes, like it is concerning where a six-year-old, seven-year-old probably shouldn't be playing a very graphic game.

Uh, let Call of Duty and Grand Theft Auto because of the nature of some of those acts that you can do. I think if you're a teenager, if you're, um, around, you know, high school or so, it's more natural for teens to focus on the strategy and the gameplay itself and not the gore associated with it. Um, that's not to say for all kids.

What I would look at is kind of see what's the motivation behind it. If, if teens are going online and they're connecting with their friends or playing with their friends online with Call of Duty, they're getting in a match and they're talking with their friends and just Call of Duty is the platform they're using to hang out, then that's one thing.

I think it's okay if it's a teenager, if it's a like 14, 15 year old. Okay. Um, if they're playing solo que or like solo play, but by themselves. And they're really angry at the world. They're really frustrated and they don't, they don't feel connected to people at all, and they're being bullied at school and they go online to play call duty, they could be trying to use that as a coping mechanism or an outlet to let out some aggression. And so research has shown that violent video games can increase aggression but not violence. And so the difference there is aggression is I want to punch you in the face. Violence is, I actually punch you in the face.

Um, and so that's something that I've noticed is a little bit interesting is, is like, gosh, if I, if my kid is spending a lot of time on this, this could make them be the next mass shooter and from my perspective, from my research I've seen, I haven't seen a direct correlation with that. If we look at teenagers who have done massive acts of violence, there has been, um, social disconnect is a big one. There's been a lot of bullying. There has been feeling, um, not pre, you know, connected to, to people and, and Right. And feeling like there's a lot of anger there and want to get that out. A part of their activities could be playing a video game that is violent, but that's not like exactly a connection. Right? It's not like, Hey, because they played this, they're doing this. It's like, no, I felt like crap before and this was just what I did while I'm feeling bad.

Ann: So a correlation maybe, but not causation as far as the violence goes.

Jeremy: Exactly.

Ann: Um, well, that is good to know. I think that makes many of us feel much better when we see what they're doing - so some of us as parents, I think we tend to maybe overemphasize, like I said at the beginning, you know, the negative and be freaked out about it and and more worried. And so we find more problems with it. We say more negative things to our kids about it and. that seems to be one of the issues is parents talking negatively about the game, not wanting them on it because, and so that's what causes a lot of the arguments. just because we're having arguments about it, doesn't necessarily make it problematic for the kid if it's us really with the problem.

Jeremy: Do you see what I'm asking, ? Yeah, no, that's a good point. I think if we're looking at something but not really truly understanding the depth of it, but what we see, we see the space value of it being a problem, then we need to, I think, gain more understanding of it. If what they're doing online is problematic, is objectively unhealthy, then that's something to be addressed. If they're spending time online trying to steal items from other people. If they're trying to go online and just intentionally, you know, hurt people like, you know, or if, if they're going online like, you know, just being mean, or if their actions, uh, are, are inappropriate, then that's okay to talk and to speak to that point. Yeah. But if we're talking about just general gameplay as, I don't like games, and that's something that I think as parents, we should work through ourselves. Yeah. We need to kind of process and explore what that's like. A lot of times it can be with our parents, it can be, you know, what we see, we see kind of a, a connection.

We think there's a correlation of, gosh, there's, our kids are dropping their grades and they're increasing their game time. Well, that's, this is the direct reason. Grades are dropping. Yeah. This is the reason why they're being disrespectful to me. This is the reason why they're staying up late and, and it's a part of it, sure. But there could be some other things going on as well.

Ann: Yeah. And I, I think you, you bring up a good point about, um, you know, if they're, if they're mistreating other people online, like Yeah. You know, I could hear my son when he was playing throughout the entire house because they have the headsets on and they're basically screaming at each other. And I hadn't heard him say a couple things once or twice that I would walk in the room and go, uh, No . So is that what we need? Do we need to pay more attention to that when they're saying and doing.

Jeremy: I think it's good. Maybe not in the moment, uh, to address it because they're probably on their line with their friends.

Ann: Right.

Jeremy: I think it's okay to have a conversation after the fact at dinnertime or kind of driving, you know, at someplace like, Hey, I noticed that you're really passionate about try to, you know, first off, do you know Positive Sandwich? Kind of a positive thing first. Kind of a concern or something that I think you should address.

And then, Hey, you know what though? I think, you're still a great kid, whatever. Right? So, I like how you're passionate. I don't like how you cussed out your friend. Right. I don't like how you're being disrespectful. Yeah. Uh, you know, I, I noticed disrespect here. Right? Yeah. What would it look like if you were to speak in a different way to your, to your friends?

Ann: Yeah. I love that positive sandwich. I'd never heard that before. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so bring up a positive first. Yes. And then talk about the negative thing and then end it with a positive. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. I love that. Something like that. We're able to, and, and it helps too cuz if we automatically go to, well this is bad and this is wrong.

Jeremy: It's true. Right? Like you were just, they were disrespectful. It sounds like an unkind, but that's not gonna be received well. Especially by a teenager. Don't start with the negative. Even if we are super positive, they may still not take it, but it, it could be, you know, more well received, ease it a little bit.

Ann: Um, one thing, uh, also, and I think you mentioned this a minute ago, transferrable motivation. So yes, when we start seeing issues, let's, let's say it is, impacting their grades or, or we think that could be impacting their grades, that maybe they're losing sleep and that kind of thing. They're more agitated or whatever, and we do see it as a problem. So what are some of the first steps, maybe what are some of the first things other than obviously, you know, decreasing their time online maybe, but what are some of the other things that we can do? To help.

Jeremy: Yeah, so I would look at the type of gameplay they're doing, and if they're spending too much time, we need to kind of redirect some of that time, do other things. Let's try to break down what they're gaining, what their motivation is to go online and then move them towards other activities that fulfill that desire or need. Let's say, you know, Minecraft is one, they're playing a lot of time, lot spend lot spending a lot of time on Minecraft. They like to build, they like to create some, problem solve. Those things in of themselves are awesome and, and really good. So, take those elements of problem solving, creating something new and building something complex. And take that, maybe move towards like being in a robotics club, something that they're able to create and to build something else in another element. If you like to compete, they're competitive games.

Maybe they can join a sports team, maybe they can do rock climbing, maybe they can do chess club or something that has that level of competition. They're able to be with other people. They're able to even maybe win some money if they're, you know, doing rock climbing tournaments or, you know, you could be able to compete and win similar to Valiant. So, I think try to find out what they're gaining and what they like about their online time and then pull that into other activities if we need to just diversify. I call it diversifying their activities. We, if we need to kind of change up what they're doing with their time.

Ann: Okay. So that's one thing. How do we know, like for instance, I mean, I know you actually see people in your therapy practice who do have problematic, um, issues with gaming. So how do we know as a parent that it's time? Like let's say we talk about doing something like rock climbing instead of this or as an outlet and they're like No, all I wanna do is play the game. Thank you. Is that when we seek someone out like you, or what do we do?

Jeremy: I think, um, I would first try to give the teens and even my practice, I really try to give the teens the tools, give them insights and the tools on, look objectively these, this activity is causing this result. You have been, you know, reducing your sleep, you know, number of hours of sleep and so you've been, you know, a little more irritable. You haven't been able to eat as well as you usually do. You haven't been keeping up with your grades. These are just objective things that we see as concerned parents as a result of your gameplay. And if they don't take to any change, if you say, look, maybe we should try this, maybe do this. You'll give this some ideas, and they don't ultimately make any changes, then I think it's our job as parents, if they're living under our roof, to be able to then help with those changes, put up those boundaries if they're unable to do so themselves, if they don't go to bed at a reasonable time. They're staying up till two or 3:00 AM you know, every morning. And it's, and I think our job as parents to say, all right, so the wifi is being turned off, or the Internet's being turned off at a reasonable time, 11 o'clock, you know, PM or 10:00 PM, whatever it may be. But to be able to set up that hard and fast rule where if they are unable to or unwilling to, then we can step in and help in them. And I think, you know, the, the older they are, the more we can try to give them that ranges and responsibility. The younger they are, it's like, look, so we see this, we're gonna, you know, 10, 11, 12, or 13, we are, should be the first lines, Hey, I noticed this, this is these changes that we're going to be making as a, you know, 17 year old, 18 year old - Hey, I think some changes need to happen and if they're reluctant or they don't, we should come support them, but then we can set those boundaries for them.

Ann: Okay, so turning the internet off at a certain time it's, really easy to say that because I'm thinking back, if I had turned the internet off at a certain time when my son was still wanting to play the game, uh, it would've been all out war in my house. So I'm, I'm just, I'm sitting here thinking in practical terms. I mean, we can say that we set boundaries and we do this and we do, but if it is going to cause an all out war, maybe is that telling us that we've got a really big issue here and we need to seek out professional. .

Jeremy: Um, a way I think to compare it is, you know, if we are in the middle of our watching our favorite show or our favorite movie, right? We're at the final season, the final episode of Stranger Things, and we are so excited to see what gonna happen. And then the lights turn off, the power goes out, right? Either someone does that or just, it happens from a natural disaster. We still are like, what's going on? We're, we're still really irritated, especially if someone's doing, holding the remote on the other.

And so I think is a similar thing too, especially for games. If they're in the middle of something, they're completing an objective or doing an activity or in the middle of a competitive game with, with others, it's like turning off, uh, entertainment. It's like, you know, not being able to watch the finals of March Madness at the end, right? Like so it's cutting off in the middle of something. And so you're right, it's natural for that to happen. If that's the case, and that happens multiple times. Like, look, this is, it's okay to be upset. It's okay to be frustrated. However, the boundary is, you're not gonna let that anger out on parents, on others or on property. You're not gonna hurt yourself. It's okay to be upset and angry, but we need to work on regulating our emotions, even if so. Unfortunately, this happens and so I think it's okay to say, gosh, that really is unfortunate. You knew what the timeframe is. And it's good to obviously have these discussions like at 10 o'clock is the, is the boundary, we are turning this off at 10 o'clock.

It is good to try to give them reminders, let them know he ahead of time, but ultimately it can be their responsibility to manage that time. And if they do respond that way, then it's like, you know what, gosh, this was, this was really upsetting because of this response. We're not gonna be able to play these games for the next couple of days.

Ann: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy: As an, as another example, like, look, this, it's okay to be frustrated and upset, but we have to, to have a appropriate response as well.

Ann: What if, I mean, is there room there for negotiation? Because I did it all the time. I mean, and I didn't know enough about the game to know, well, we just started the blah, blah, blah, and we have to go to the blah, blah, blah, and it's only gonna take another, you know, 15 - it was always 15 minutes - it's only gonna take another 15 minutes. So as parents, I mean, I, I gave in a lot on that because I didn't want the all out war and I did kind of look at it as okay, if somebody was pulling the plug on Bridgerton or something on me, yeah. I mean, I would freak out too. So I did try to do that.

Ann: And, and I know that one thing kids get frustrated about with parents is I saw some kid do a reel on this, um, a couple years ago. You can’t pause, a live video game, , you can't, I can't just come eat dinner. I'm in the middle of this. So, you know, for those of us that might not understand that, I mean, what would you say about like, negotiating a little bit when it comes to that? Or should we just give them the, you know, it's 10 o'clock and, and you better be done or else.

Jeremy: Yeah, no, I mean that's a, that's a hard line because it, it's natural for kids and teens to try to push boundaries just as naturally kinda the developmental stage of things. And I think it's okay to try to give some leeway if, if we're consistently put putting forth that leeway and even though this is being five minutes, that 10 minutes, then 20 minutes and half an hour, then that, that, I would encourage that to be able to kind of be stopped and, you know, to pull it back to more of the, you know, normal time or, or standard time that you started off. With that being said, um, it's good to have these continued conversations like, look, you know what, I want you to be able to finish this stuff, but this was the timeframe that we discussed, and so the next night another idea is like, if they go over, then they get that much time less on the next day to be able to help, you know, negotiate, not negotiate, but being able to be responsible for that time that they've been given. You know, some games, have a large objective that takes hours and hours and hours to complete. Hogwarts legacy is a new game that's re relatively new game that's out that takes a long time to complete all the stuff. And so it's not gonna be possible for a game to be completed or for all the tasks completed be completed in a couple hours. But there are natural time spots that you can pause the game or to save your progress and to leave, if it's like a single player game. Even in something like Minecraft, where you're doing and building a lot of things, there are natural places to pause. Instead of having to collect all the stuff, you can collect a portion of the stuff, save your progress, and then leave and come back the next day. If you're playing a competitive game like Valiance or League of Legends or whatever it may be, we shouldn't start another game five minutes before we have to get out. And so these games that you're playing a live match? You can't leave or pause a live match, but they don't last forever. They usually last half an hour to 45 minutes to an hour at most. At most. And so if we know if they're playing competitive game when they're in a match and they end 10 minutes before the time stops, they should not start a new game because they won't finish it in the timeframe.

Ann: So that's where again, it comes in, it's a really good idea for parents to understand the games and know how they're played, because they can kind of pull the wool too and say, oh no, you know, it just takes 15 minutes to play it or whatever.

Jeremy: Yeah. Exactly. And, and teens, you know, what if, if the relationship is positive if it's even, you know, problematic. The teens can, you know, really use the parents', uh, ignorance to their advantage. Yeah. The teens can say, oh, it's, you know, right. And then really get to what they want to do more, spend more time, uh, online.

Another piece of it too, kids could be, teens, could be spending more time online and try to get away from parental relationships. There could be, you know, they may not feel safe or they may feel like they just don't, they're not understood. They don't get it. And so it's really good to try to you know, when you know irl in the real world to try to really improve those relationships so that there is a safety net, there is a reason to get off the game.

A lot of times it's like, well, there's that desperation because my life in the physical world sucks so bad. I don't, I don't wanna go back to it. And so, not, not, most parents are not, most parents are not like that. Most parents, you know, have a good relationship and, and love and are kind and disrespectful to their kids.

Sometimes though there, there can be like so much tension around games that causes a big rift, uh, and a lot tension between them.

Ann: Yeah.

Ann: I know there are programs like in residential treatment centers for gaming addiction. So, you know, we've talked about some of the things we can do. What is the point where you say, okay, this is counseling's not helping. We've set boundaries. That's not helping. I Is that when you consider residential treatment, that, that seems like a very extreme, um, way to go, but tell me how that works.

Jeremy: Yeah, it is extreme. I think the first thing I would do is to have a 60 to 90 day, um, time of complete abstinence from the game or from the screen use, type of screen use that's causing problems. We can't get away from all screens. Right. But, you know, if they can stop playing Minecraft for 60, 90 days, I think it's a great start. Do individual therapy, help them gain more insights and work on some of these other issues that could be going on, I think to go to inpatient treatment - there are extreme cases, but I think it's okay if there is consistently, either a lot of pushback or no progress over those 60 to 90 days.

And gaming disorder is a legitimate diagnosis. And so really for that diagnosis to be there, it needs to be for a year's worth of time, you know, for there to be a lot of issues overall - all of their different aspects of life are being negatively impacted by games for a year's time.

There's a lot of preoccupation if they’d rather game than do other activities they used to enjoy. Um, if they, if others are saying this is an issue, yet they continue to game in spite of seeing that there are problems and consequences. Um, For a year's time. Again, that's, that's where we look at this is a huge concern - we're not making any headway or progress in then I think it's okay to obviously look for inpatient treatment.

I don't honestly recommend that for young kids. Um, and I don't honestly recommend that until, unless the person is willing and wanting to change, wanting to go. I've seen a lot of clients who go and like, I don't want to be here, and they don't. Yeah. And there could be some progress. Sure. And it's a, it's a break from games. That's great. But they go back to their life and not much really maybe has changed outside of that one setting.

Now treatment is fantastic and is positive and is needed in the appropriate time. I think though, if we don't change, sometimes the family system that's around that child or teenager, especially between like 12, and anything younger than 15, the family system is what's needing to change and to do something different.

Ann: Um, so, so do you equate that to, um, drug and alcohol, addiction? I mean, it sounds like it. It's close to the same.

Jeremy: Yes and no. And so I would honestly categorize game addiction closer to food, to a food addiction. I kind of see food and screen use as kind of similar. We can't survive without food, but we can be healthy or unhealthy in how we interact with food. We can binge, we can eat super healthy or super unhealthy. Same thing with games and with social media and technology, right? So, we can't survive this day and age without technology. But if we just do, you know, video games, it's basically like just eating cheeseburgers all the time. It's unhealthy - it's, it's probably not the best way to be balanced in our screen use. And so I think, you know, if we're able to, I think at times we need to find balance. I think at times though, with video games in particular, you can go towards that abstinence model similar to alcohol or to a substance use. Complete abstinence works for a lot of people and is the way for a lot of people to abstain from a substance.

And so for video games, that can be the time and place for some people. I think for some people it can also be about balance. It can be about, look, I have an unhealthy relationship with it. You know now, but I want to still be a gamer in the future. So how do I change my relationship to it for it to be healthy?

Um, you know, similar to your son, it sounds like your son didn't have a gaming addiction, but it sounds like maybe there was some maybe some, you know, erratic or, or, or not healthy at times gaming in the past. Right. But it sounds like now at the older age, he's fine. He's, he's okay. So, maturity can also help with that.

Teenagers brains kind of gravitate towards dopamine and gravitate towards pleasure seeking activities and I kind of categorize video games as perfect positive reinforcement because whenever you play a game, like you get immediate feedback, right. When you do something good, right? Then you get the reward auditorily, visually, um, you know, you do well in school, you'll get your grade back two weeks later. So it's, that's super delayed , right?

Ann: Right. So, the positive reinforcement that is there, the reward is immediate and your brain goes, Ooh, let me do that again. Let me do that some more. Yes. . Yeah.

Jeremy: Yes, exactly. And teenagers feel pleasure much more intensely than adults to it. Right. So it makes sense to try to, so sometimes either move towards more risky activities, um, you know, and games can be a part of it sometimes too. Yeah.

Ann: So that 60-to-90-day abstinence period you're talking about when we suggest that as a parent, if the, if the teenager. doesn't think they have a problem and they don't want to do that, then we've got a problem, I guess

Jeremy: Yeah, no, and that's a good point. Again, if they are having issues where objectively their sleep is impaired, there's all these symptoms that we're able to objectively see of how gaming is negatively impacting them, then it's okay for us to make that decision for them. I want you to do this for yourself, but if you're not gonna make that choice for yourself, then we are gonna do this for you. We're gonna help you in this process. A lot of times, you know, if we look at other activities, other substance abuse issues, there isn't a desire to change, right? And so sometimes we need to have an intervention. We need to have people coming in to help someone make changes that they don't want to make.

And so whenever we're, they're in the moment of having a problem with gaming, it's okay to pause that and say, look, we're just, we're just gonna do this. And then to really help engage with them to not just say, all right, good luck. Figure it out. Right? But let's go towards these other activities that can be fun.

Jeremy: Yeah, right. When they take that break, the reason is it, it gives their neurotransmitters time to reset so they're able to authentically enjoy other activities. Because when. Uh, abusing games and they're spending, um, uh, uh, you know, a lot of hours gaming, their only dopamine is coming from gaming. Yeah, they, you can't go out on a nice day to go for a walk and experience joy because the only joy you're experiencing is from a high caliber, very fast paced activity. Um, and so it gives them room to enjoy other stuff. That's why we take that break.

Ann: So, so the, the key is then, as a parent, maybe plan that in advance and know that I've got these other things that I'm gonna try to help them replace the games with. And then, yeah, maybe also some counseling during that 90 days as well to help them through it. I would think.

Jeremy: Yeah, whoops. Of course. And I, and I would, you know, it, it's a, it can be a hard line, and this is really important for them, for the parents. I think also to be able to seek treatment and to get some support through counseling for themselves too, to navigate this realm. But I think it's a fine line between, we need to be able to set these boundaries that just need to happen, but also give choice when possible to the teenager.

All right. So you wanna do fencing or do you want to do. , which one? Right. We can't pay for both, but which one are we gonna do? Right. And so give them the options. So, so they have some autonomy and they get to choose. Cuz one of the things that they love people and teens love about online time is there is so much control and so much autonomy that they get to have, they get to have all the control and the power and dominion when they're in a game.

Um, and if they don't feel like they have that in the physical world, then they may feel like, well, I have no control and I have no power and, and. and so they, they really may try to gravitate away from that. Great

Ann: Great point. Okay. That's a great point.

Well, one thing I was gonna ask, and, and I was just curious about this, because of my hangup about these video games, I wanted my child to be an outdoor child.

I did not want him playing video games. I re, I just despise them. And so every minute he was on it, I felt like was a minute. He was not outdoors and it was just bad, just all around bad. Do you see many people in your practice? . Do parents ever come to you and go, there's a problem, and then you realize, well, there's really not a problem. I mean, is that a thing?

Jeremy: Yeah, I, I do, I do. I think it's sometimes it's in the middle though, right? So parents can be on one side as like all of it is really bad and it's objectively you're seeing a lot of bad, so it makes sense. I think a lot of times though, the teens can be on the other side and say, look, there, there's nothing wrong with it.

This is just how my generation is. And there's some truth to that. But there's also middle ground, like there is a lot of. And benefit. They're just eating, being, you know, biologically a person needs vitamin D, right? Like you, so it's good to go outside. So there, there's, there's benefit to that. And so if you spend, you know, objectively 12 hours a day indoors doing anything, it's not, you know, it's not the best for you.

And so it's good to be able to have that diversity and have that balance. And so I think it's, I, that's what I advocate for. It's kind of having that balance, spending time online, connecting with friends instead of maybe going over to your neighbor's house like you did years ago. It's okay to hang out online and hang out with your friends.

Um, but it's also good every now and be like, Hey, let's go see a movie together. Or, Hey, let's go do something at the park. Or, Hey, just come over and we can hang out. We can play a game here, but we're together physically. So I think there's kind of, there can be a middle ground and imbalance to that, but it can be hard. Again, like, you know, these polarizing ideas are, are, are fighting against each.

Ann: Yeah. So, so really the message is balance. Balance all the way around. Just like with everything else that we do in life, we need to balance.

Jeremy: That's what I would encourage. Yes. That's what I would encourage for sure.

Ann: That's perfect. Well, listen, Jeremy, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it. I think this was really, really good. And like I said, I wish you'd been around for me five years ago when I was fighting with my son to go outside every two minutes. Um, but I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Jeremy: Yeah, of course. And thank you for inviting me out. This has been a pleasure.

Balance – that’s what all of us should strive for in our lives. The middle ground. Not too much of this or too little of that. But how do we help our kids maintain that balance? During our conversation we briefly mentioned the “wheel of life”, which is simply a visual tool Jeremy designed to use in his practice, escapingthe.com. It’s a wheel that includes the different areas of life that someone needs to make sure they keep in balance along with activities like screen time and gaming: mental health, school work, the relationship with parents, sleep and hygiene, exercise, eating right, and relationships with peers.

Our role as parents is to help our teens see to it that none of these other facets of life are negatively impacted by gaming or screen time. If sleep starts to suffer or they’re failing to do their homework, or they aren’t hanging out with friends anymore, we know it’s time to help them set better boundaries.

Gaming is part of their life, we can’t change that. But we can help make sure it doesn’t take over their life.

Jeremy actually provides online counseling services at escapingthe.com locally in Dallas Texas and virtually within the state of Texas. He also provides virtual coaching serves throughout the country. He works with adults and kids 13 and up to help them develop a healthier relationship with screens, including gaming. And he’ll work with you to help you understand the issue and develop tools to help your child and strengthen your relationship. I’ll have all the links for Jeremy in the show notes and right here where you’re listening because he has some fabulous resources for you.

There’s an online parenting course – Powered Up Parent - to help you help them find that balance with their gaming.

There’s also a course for teens – Powered Up Player – for 10- to 18-year-olds all about how to experience healthy gaming.

There’s an online quiz your kid can take to see if they might have a problem with gaming

There’s a link to the Internet and Technology Addicts Anonymous 12-step program – you can attend local meetings in your area

And I saved the best for last – Get this: Jeremy and his partner run a 5-day, live Escapingthe.com Experience in Dallas Texas June 19^th through the 23^rd and again July 17^th through the 21^st. Totally worth a trip to Texas!

There are daily activities for teens & young adults who play video games. They do teambuilding exercises, woodworking, cooking, personal training, paintball, Axe throwing, equine therapy, fly fishing, nature walks and go to the National Videogame Museum. And they get an old-fashioned alarm clock to wake up to every morning! I want to go!

I hope you got something out of today’s episode. If you did, be sure and share it with a friend. I’ll be back here next Tuesday. Until then, give yourself a pat on the back – you’re doing a great job!